An insiders view of the current bonus controversy. Cut and pasted from elsewhere online and deserving of a crystal mark from the Plain English Society-
The whole bonus thing is not at all straight forward and the right and wrongs of it can not be generalised as “no-one should get one”. As another user pointed out there are many divisions of a bank and many departments within those divisions. For simplicity’s sake I’ll limit it to two, Retail and Investment. Now in general the Retail bit is the High Street branches that you all know and love/hate. These generally contain client facing, hard working people who have, mainly, done everything asked of them in 2008 and maintained there divisions profits. Yes, some of there mortgage lending decisions have been a bit suspect and were based on a ever increasing housing market but in general they have been OK and certainly in the case of the major high street banks not generated losses that would cause major issues to the bottom lines of RBS, Lloyds, Barclays or the like. These people are generally at the lower end of the pay scale and the bonus is a welcome top up, as it is in any firm who gives them. There bonuses are generally (relatively) small but there are a lot of them, so it soon adds up (for RBS think 100,000 people x £1000, that’s £100m before you start). You could argue that the bonus culture is simply wrong for them (and I’d actually agree with that) but that’s how banks work. How many of you would work a lot of extra hours for no pay during the year under the promise that “it will be made up in your bonus at the end of the year”? That’s exactly what these people do.
Then we get onto the bad boy Investment Bank division and that’s where these huge losses have come from. Now 99.99% of you will have had nothing directly to do with these. They don’t have individual clients (unless you have a net worth of over $10m) and deal mainly with corporate clients, pension funds etc. Again there are many sections in a Investment Bank but the well known bits of it are the ‘professional gamblers’ or Traders as we know them. And yes they gamble with sums of money you cannot even start to imagine. Hopefully they win more than they lose. These bunch of Equity (share) trades are also the first of the “bonus problems”. Although the traders are by no means poorly paid, a lot of them are on commission and that is written into their contracts. They are therefore legally entitled to a percentage of the money they make for the bank. You either pay it, or they take you to court and you end up paying it (plus legal fees). In 2008 the Equity and Forex traders made good money and hence are owed bonuses and these are the ones that make the headlines i.e. Banker gets £1m bonus!
Now, as well as these ‘front office’ traders the Investment Bank have a huge number of “Back Office” employees. These are very similar to the people in the Retail banks and basically keep the computer systems running, deal with payments and all the other things that a big company has to do to operate. The back office employees probably out number the traders 10-to-1 and usually loath them at least as much as you do. Again, these people are on no overtime but ‘it will be made up in your bonus’ type deals like the retail side. It’s verbal not written into contracts and if anything they work even longer hours than their retail brothers.
For all of these people 2008 has more or less been business as normal. Where it has gone horribly wrong is in the fixed income and deposits and risk management divisions. The former of these were the relatively small groups of people who were playing with the American sub-prime mortgages and so on and the latter is the department that is supposed to weigh up the exposures and risks to the bank and stop over exposure etc. Now for reasons I can’t even begin to understand that’s gone tits up big time. The losses and write downs that these groups have generated are staggering (in an aircraft context, the losses of my bank alone could buy the entire planned Euro fighter production for the UK at least twice over). Those losses have devastated the cash reserves not only of the Investment Banks but the entire parent groups. With no cash reserves- no lending. No lending means housing markets crash, businesses can’t get loans to expand and so on. Also there is a legal requirement for banks to have a certain percentage of there reserves in ‘cash’ so you, me and everyone else can go to the hole in the wall on a Friday night and get money. If you do not have that cash on hand the Bank of England can force you to get it buy selling assets which in a falling market means more losses etc. Now these two groups of people are not getting bonuses mainly because they are no longer employed (they went months ago), along with a lot of the senior managers who should have known better. In fact most Investment Banks have shed something like 15-20% of their staff in the last year.
Some banks, RBS being the prime example, compounded this issue by making merger decisions that were based on greed / pride than good business sense and for that there is no defence at all.
If the Banks don’t pay bonuses will the top talent walk? In a simple word yes because the top investment banks in the US and Asia will continue to pay commission related bonuses and if you are good they will poach you and that will be a very bad thing for the UK Banks. The reason I say that is because to get back the billions in losses the banks have to trade and like it or not it’s the key traders who make a lot of money for the banks (that’s why we pay them so much!). If you are not making money on trading (and let’s face it with interest rates at 1% your not going to make it on loans) then the recovery of the banks will take a lot longer. And until they recover you are not going to see government loans repaid, or high movement in the inter-bank money markets that are key to the mortgage markets. Until they are profitable remember they are not going to pay a penny in corporation tax, so the government is loosing billions in revenue as well, which ultimately we will have to make up with personal taxes. Also one hell of a lot of all your pensions and investments are tied up in banking stock. Those have fallen off a cliff in the last year significantly reducing your investment values. Getting the value of those back-up benefits every one of us (and yes a lot of people will make serious money on there recovery but that’s the way the market works).
So, should the banks pay bonuses? Yes- to targeted individuals, and I think you will find that’s exactly what they are doing and at a vastly reduced rate to previous years.
You are also going to see a fundamental change in the bonus culture. The banks have woken up to the fact that a lot of things in the Investment Banks were being done for a ‘fast buck’ that looked good at the time but 3-years down the line was horrendous (aka sub-prime). Bonuses will still be large but they will be staggered (over years) and linked to the banks profitability that year.
I don’t expect to change anyone’s views on this, nor defend the management in the banks that caused it, but hopefully you now understand the issues a bit better and realise that the vast majority of bank employee’s are hard working individuals that had nothing to do with or control over this complete balls up but are being punished all the same.
By the way, the biggest winner of the banking bonus bonanza is HM Taxman who rakes in 25-41% of the bonus regardless.
Contact your local elected officials - for free
by Goldtop
17 Feb 2009 at 12:16
Anyone have any idea if this an accurate picture of the situation? I am interested in the division between retail and investment banking in particular.
by Jericoa
17 Feb 2009 at 12:38
Crikey that was along post…written by a banker!
For me the bottom line is year on year cash bonuses are mad and always were. they should be banned.
Bonuses in company shares that mature after aminimum of 5 years maybe. The regulation has to be global though and (if I had my way) retrospective. All cash bonuses paid should be retrospectively converted to shares at the time the bonus was paid for the last 10 years. If the share price is 20% of what it was when they were paid the bonus..well sorry mate. you reap what you sew.
That would be justice of a sort at least.
by John Bray
17 Feb 2009 at 12:53
Although it provides a credible explanation of the way things are, to me, it begs the question “is that all it’s for?”
Does the entire financial services business (I won’t insult fellow engineers by calling it an industry) exist solely to generate profits for the shareholders and revenue for HMG?
by CoralBloom
17 Feb 2009 at 13:51
Sorry.
Massive bonuses are no more than a means of paying your mates and then sending them off to bank it in Jersey. As to the bank tellers. Pay them a decent, wage.
There was never a shipbuilder on the Clyde who could justify differences in workforce divisions when they were going bust. This isn’t manipulation. It is bare-faced cheek and nothing else.
The busted banks shouldn’t be paying bonuses. If these guys are so good, then let them get that banks back to where they need to be, then get a bonus. Prove it. They haven’t so far, have they?
They should all be sent to Somali as AID workers for a couple of years before bonus pow-pows. There is always Congo as an alternative offer.
Rant over.
by Jambo
17 Feb 2009 at 16:13
Problems with the above:
1) The important aspect is NOT to stop bankers getting future bonuses, this might be part of re-vamping financial regulation; but it doesn’t address the moral hazard of the previous bailouts.
What MUST happen is a re-claiming of past bonuses for those bankers who have made short term profits whilst creating vast system destroying long term risks. Anything less than that is a green light for future bankers, insurers and traders to ignore systematic long term risk for their own benefit.
2) It is all very well saying talent will just go to the US / Asia if it is not paid whopping great bonuses in the UK, however this muddies the water. Few people emigrate lightly, emigrating to a country where english is not the 1st language is even less likely. The US investment banks are no longer in existence and there is ALOT of ‘talent’ floating around. Although given the performance of this ‘talent’ I am not convinced we really need it.
3) John B hits on this.
Financial services is a zero sum game. If you want to understand this imagine two totally separate systems, on the one hand we have people who mine stuff, make stuff and move stuff – This is the ‘real’ economy.
On the other hand we have people who decide who makes it, who mines it and who moves it. This is the the function of financial services.
By allocating loans and pricing equity traders are controlling what direction and how fast the ‘real’ economy develops, that is their sole function.
So, is it actually worth while having this huge bloated industry attempting to handle the financial services for a good portion of the world in the UK? It is, on the whole a zero sum game which in theory steers the rest of the economy.
But has it been steering it in a useful way? Looking at overpaid CEOs, Depleting resources, Brittle JIT business models; basically an economy riddled in short term thinking. I would argue not.
by CoralBloom
17 Feb 2009 at 16:39
An improvement on my outburt!
Appreciated
These guys are paid to take care, nurture your cash, say in the form of a pension. They have clearly failed by their risky activities. I demanded low risk investments for my tiny pension. My demands were clearly not met. They failed to follow simple instructions.
Point 3.
So how do we dismantle an industry? Is this the beginning of the process now?
by kooltidings
17 Feb 2009 at 23:43
I suppose the priority will be to split the banks again the retail side and the investment side.
It is also true that at the end of the day they should pay decent wages. Sales reps are paid basics + commission, The teller in a high street branch does not go out on the road to get the business, are bonuses to the staff paid according to what the individual branch does as ‘turnover’ (reluctant to use a business term here)
May be instead of giving the bonuses in cash staff should be given shares, frozen say for 5 years along the same type of scheme when companies offer their staff the option to purchase shares.
Many years ago the company that owned Pickford (I think the ultimate holding was NFC it is so long agao) could not afford pay increase so gave shared instead to their staff
May be also instead of giving cash, they could make contribution to the recipient’s pension fund.
by OldNick666
18 Feb 2009 at 12:15
“The reason I say that is because to get back the billions in losses the banks have to trade and like it or not it’s the key traders who make a lot of money for the banks”
Sounds like a trip to Gamblers Anonymous” is needed.
The quote sounds as if it is coming from a gambling addict who is always convinced that with another bet they will get back their losses. IT IS A DELUSION.
by OldNick666
18 Feb 2009 at 12:20
“Financial services is a zero sum game.” I disagree. There is always a loss involved by the need to pay the traders.
Banks should not be allowed to trade in second-hand shares or any derivative thereof on their own account.
by John Bray
18 Feb 2009 at 12:29
If these “stars” want to go somewhere else then fine. Let them wreck someone else’s economy. If a bank can only make money by gambling then let it go bust – the sooner the better.
by kooltidings
18 Feb 2009 at 14:49
May be until the money is repaid the bonus should go
- as downpayment towards the debt/payment towards the toxic side/paying some of the morgates
- as way of financing major projects such as roads, housing etc
- as way of paying for re-training staff that are/have been losing their jobs
- set aside as an emergency reserve
We will eventually have to deal with the issue that the government can’t own that many bank and decision will have to be made to ‘downsize’
The first batch of payment made to Northern Rock bonus if I recall right was because they had managed to repay some of the money back faster than ‘targeted to’
As owners of the bank a group of auditors say from Customs and Excise or toubleshooters need to have the list of all the private individual debtors those who at the end of the day will be able to take the country back up when they stop losing it all. Could it have been cheaper to pay everyone’s mortgages off or give every individual tax payer en equivalent lump sum and been told to do what they wanted with it.
OK we may think we bail out the culprits but so be it, this needs fixing and life is unfair
At the end of the day we keep being told we own the bank but we have no power over them
I do believe that when things ‘start’ again matters will gradually take care of themselves, albeit rather slow at the beginning. It is important that any type of regulation is in place at the onset of it because short memory will prevail and before we know it will start all over again.
by kooltidings
18 Feb 2009 at 14:51
John
I agree with you if they want to go let them go, new blood won’t do any harm
by CoralBloom
18 Feb 2009 at 15:33
No way should there be a penny in bonuses.
When things settle back down it better not go back to the way it was. These guys want to get a tip for losing, for practically bankrupting their own company and now the country.
Leaving things to take care of themselves will means we just have the same conmen running a muck again.
If they are in the jail, the will be there to make sure short term memory lasts a lot longer.
I would have preferred that banks were left to fall all on their own without a penny from any of us.
No one has yet explained to me why we should not have done that, all I’ve got is ‘Well, you can’t let that happen.’ Why not? Unemployment. Is that what will happen? The Job Centre staff are completely stressed out and not coping with the work.
Just what would have been so wrong with a some hard lessons learnt?
by kooltidings
19 Feb 2009 at 00:06
Coral
Absolutely, this is why regulation must be in place as part of the measure to re-build
It is also true that I think one bank will have to fall, the politicians want to stay well away from being the one that let it happen.
The hard lesson will then mean that the message has gone across, at the moment it looks like they are all being bailed out and in 20 years time (or sooner) it will happen all over again
by Jambo
19 Feb 2009 at 16:06
Coral, hate to disagree but the reason they couldn’t ‘just let them fail’. Is that society would’ve failed. You may be more self sufficient and sensible but for most people if the Hole-in-the-Wall won’t give them money and they can’t pay for anything on plastic they’d be starving within the week.
So, in order for society to keep functioning something did need to be done.
However, those who have been gaining great personal reward whilst bringing society to the point of collapse _MUST_ have those rewards confiscated as far as is possible such that people are not tempted to repeat their scam in the future.
Personally I disagree with how the government has rescued the banks but that’s neither here nor there.
by CoralBloom
19 Feb 2009 at 16:16
Jambo
So the hole in the wall doesn’t give out cash. Would we starve or would we become inventive? I don’t know, that’s why I keep asking the question. What would happen?
I’ve no money and I need milk. The farmer has milk and he doesn’t want to keep it. We would organise food distribution would we not? As a community.
We would all have homes. The bank doesn’t exist so you don’t pay a mortgage anymore. You will loose your savings, but would the farmer want those bits of paper anyway?
Maybe the government would just print more paper money?
I’m just asking. If we have the information, we know what the various options are and the consequences of those options, then we would understand, be better placed to make those choices.
I’m beginning to think that no one really knows, that there is no ‘Emergency Plan’, that the government just never considered the possibility. That is the same as never thinking you will ever lose your job, you will always make the mortgage payments…