
Blown in the Wind
I dont think saying sorry will make any difference anymore.
You say sorry to someone for accidently bumping into them in the street, not for systematically screwing what you can within the rules of parliamentary expenses.
For that you have to first resign, then say sorry, nothing else cuts the mustard for people who would have us believe that they are selfless ‘public servants’ in the job to ‘help hard working families and small business’.
Exactly how many of our standard bearer public servant politicians resigned over being ‘clever’ with expenses rules.?
NONE
They prefer to hide like cowards behind the exact wording of ‘the rules’.
The currency of all politicians is the lowest I can ever recall, the labour party have dragged the whole institution down with them. Only the lib dems seem to be left with a shred of integrity and honesty of action intact.
Talk to the ‘man in the street’ everybody is sick to death of them, there is no ideology to vote for no passion, no alternative vision, just a hobsons choice between the charisma of the leaders.
I wish something compelling and fresh and decent would come along and sweep this lot away, even that is hard to imagine. The incumbents on both sides have learnt the system so well now alternative views never get a serious look in the media unless you dress up as superman and strap yourself to big ben…then and only then do you get coverage but in the process lose mainstream credibility.
Done for by creeping complicity and lack of vision, what ever happened to building jerusalem in Englands green and pleasant land after WW2?.
Now all we aspire to build is shopping malls, casinos and cafe bars.
Worse than that we are now getting set up by the incumbents to line their pockets for one final time before the big crash.
Investors take note, banks will offer you 3.5% interest so long as you sign up for 1, 2 or 3 years. They know and are actively lobbying for the conditions such that next year interest rates will be on the climb again in a big way and hey guess who will be creaming off all the profits and bonuses on your savings locked in at 3.5% ????
Yet noboddy does a god dam thing about it, not the BBC not the newspapers, not anyone, they are all part of the same club.
We used to be able to rely on the BBC at least until Alaister Campbell cynically and systematically pulled out all their free spririted journalistic teeth for their ‘weapons of mass destruction’ governmental deception. How many weapons did they find again? How many links to Al queda did they find again??
Why arn’t more people angry, why arn’t journalists furious with governments and bankers?
Are we all so wrapped up in surfing the net,saving for pensions that will be worth nothing and trying to achieve the impossible of staying young and rich forever to bother building something sustainable and beautiful?
I was in Edinburgh this week, we are not even capable of building the beautiful architecture you can see there now, all we can build is cheap and nasty looking pre-fab glass and steel edifices that look rusty, dated and dirty within a few years. Where is the magnificence in society?
For goodness sake wake UP!!!
Why do I bother.
We will carry on like this until a crisis forces us to change. No point in pointing out the obvious it seems, the only thing that will get people off thier backsides will be when mass uneployment or worse directly influenses a critical mass of people.
Unfortunately due to our technology and effciency that threshold will be very high in the modern world, if people can claim benefits and still eat and have broadband and a crate of high strengh lager a week nothing will happen, except of course noboddy will have any real pleasure in existing.
Rant over, nobody ever does anything anyway, im just p****** into the wind.
Jericoa
Contact your local elected officials - for free
by Sagittariidae
10 May 2009 at 04:32
Because you care!
I’ll be checking what my MP has been claiming for and if there is a single penny claimed that no one else in any other job could claim for he’ll not be getting my vote!
The system we’ve had since the ’80s had ensured that people feel there is no point in participating in democracy – they get mocked, sneered at, you name it, if they do. Look at what happened to anyone in a position to have a voice and pointed out that the bubble would burst, that salaries were too high for the bosses…. the vested interests made sure of it.
A democracy needs a free press, an active press. And we all know who Tony went to visit in Australia before he ran for election. Our press is not free.
by johnbray
12 May 2009 at 23:16
What I find curious is the notion that because these people don’t earn enough (or don’t have enough money) then taking things – to which they are not entitled – is fair game.
I doubt that this would wash with a magistrate if you were up for shoplifting. Or is a precedent now being set where anyone on less than 64k a year is now allowed to steal with impunity?
by goldtop
13 May 2009 at 15:49
“taking things – to which they are not entitled – is fair game”
I think the crux of their argument is that they think they ARE entitled to them. It takes a breathtaking amount of arrogance to believe that the taxpayer should be keeping you in a manner that you would like to be become accustomed…it shows just how delusional these people are if you ask me.
by Jericoa
14 May 2009 at 22:40
hello..just playing …finding my way around.
still very busy ..travelling again tomorrow..
down in london next thursday for the day.
The main parties are going to get such a kicking in the elections by the 20% of people who bother to vote.
by Nick Taylor
16 May 2009 at 11:36
Stephen Fry (who is simultaneously one of the wisest, and possibly least-wise people in Britain) has a different take:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/8045869.stm
As far as I’m aware, isn’t it only the Telegraph who have seen the actual numbers?
My take on it would be that all of these people have accountants that advise them as to what they can get away with. A handful a criminal, a handful are merely stupid, or forgetful, or untogether… and the rest went along with everyone else.
And as Stephen Fry points out – this is incredibly trivial compared to… well, the general diversion of wealth from poor to rich. The Iraq War. Staggering PFI ripoffs. The soon-to-be-never-ending ID card fiasco.
And so on.
Reminds me of Al Capone finally being done for tax evasion. We’re due some revenge, but not for this.
by goldtop
16 May 2009 at 18:08
Jericoa,
“down in london next thursday for the day”
Fancy a pint?
by goldtop
16 May 2009 at 19:29
Nick,
“this is incredibly trivial compared to… well, the general diversion of wealth from poor to rich. The Iraq War. Staggering PFI ripoffs. The soon-to-be-never-ending ID card fiasco”
Its an easy to understand, here’s the bad guys and this is what they are doing issue though. That’s probably why everyone’s up in arms about it, a complex issue isn’t going to get people going in the same way. Whether everyone will be distracted by some trivial nonsense (Big Brother, Kerry Katona’s weight) by this time next week remains to be seen. I think I can guess though.
by Jericoa
17 May 2009 at 11:18
sure Goltop,
mt schedule is not yet confirmed for the day but i will be on the red eye train out of leeds and need to return the same day (early evening) but there should be a window somewhere. As things stand
leeds – Croydon until after lunch – croydon to farringdon – farringdon to kings cross and the train back.
Not much opportunity there i guess depending on where you are based.
by goldtop
19 May 2009 at 12:27
Nick,
“Stephen Fry (who is simultaneously one of the wisest, and possibly least-wise people in Britain) has a different take”
He says in that interview that ‘we got the politicians we deserved’. I said that in the Different Way thread days ago. How come no-one is interviewing me on my way into Pizza Express?
by NIck Taylor
20 May 2009 at 08:05
Because that’s not why he was interviewed?
So anyway, the speaker of the house has become the ritual/symbolic scapegoat sacrifice for this fiasco… offered as a “gesture” to see if it will sufficiently appease the public so business can go on as normal.
Meantime, nothing changes. Have you read this?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2009/may/19/bilderberg-skelton-greece
Starts off about a rich super-group and winds up talking about ID cards. The real crimes are going unpunished, unaddressed.
If I was back in the UK I would seriously consider running as an independent. Do you know what Dave from Blur is up to at the moment?
by goldtop
20 May 2009 at 10:21
Probably rehearsing for the upcoming tour.
I read somewhere recently that he’s gone into politics. Whether that has been put on hold because the band are back together I don’t know.
by goldtop
20 May 2009 at 10:29
Sorry. Yes I do know-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Rowntree
by NIck Taylor
20 May 2009 at 15:46
Politics and law then. Looks like he’s due to run in the next elections – I’m guessing that he’ll be pushing policies that are as radical as they need to be – although I imagine that within the framework of the labour party, that’s pretty limiting.
Really, the whole system needs redesigning – and by “whole system” I’m also including those elements of power that aren’t democratically accountable.
by Jericoa
22 May 2009 at 20:29
‘ the whole system needs redesigning’
Maybe that is what we should do then.
As goldtop said in the pub yesterday, strip back what we have now until we get back to the core that in years gone by, then build something back up from there fit for the 21st century and stripping out all the hangers opn that have attached themselves to the core over the years.
How hard can it be? Most of the issues at sourse are quite simple once you see through all the spin and smoke and mirrors and self interest groups whom would have us believe it is far too comoplicated for ordinary folk to grasp.
Bull**** i say.
Now all we need is a philanthropist with afew grand to spare,a cottage in the outer hebrides and a typewriter.
by Nick Taylor
24 May 2009 at 04:54
I think one of the fundamental things about all this is that democracy was originally about keeping the aristocracy in check.
There’s this eternal dynamic in politics between the needs of the general public and the interests of established power… and what has happened to Labour in the last decade or so is that it has gone from being about “looking after the needs of the public before the interests of established power” to “looking after the interests of established power, and “marketing” the results to the public”.
And it’s a pattern that’s mirrored to a greater or lesser extent throughout the English-speaking world.
Any new system we dream up has to be focussed on the fact that we now have a new baronial class. I don’t think government is the problem, I think corporate power is. Show me a fuckup happening in the world and 9 times out of 10, I’ll show you someone getting rich out of it… and that being part of the reason it happened in the first place.
It’s more complicated than this of course – society generally is in a massively transitionary period on about 5 axis at once, and our governments simply can’t keep up in their current forms.
The other thing that I think is important is that any new system needs to be “designed”. It will evolve by itself to an extent anyway, but we need checks and balances. If we went straight from representative democracy to some sort of referendum-on-everything system, then you might as well just hand the keys to Rupert Murdoch et al.
But anyway, the fundamental core of democracy is how to manage power.
And that’s why I think this expenses thing is trivial.
by Jericoa
24 May 2009 at 11:17
I agree with everything you say there except the trivial nature of the expenses saga. In itself it may be trivial but it has turned into a powerful metaphor of understanding for the masses about what has happened to the system.
Many politicians will lose thier jobs over this and it will have an influence on voting patterns for the elections.
It also represents an opportunity, the politicians are temporarily exposed to the masses for what they are. There is likely to be an appetite for questioning the whole system in the comming months.
Maybe it is time to go back to the origibnal purpose of the site. I will (as a starting point) begin the process of putting together an alternative manifesto under different categories for debate to come up with a non partisan consesnsus by the use of this site.
I am sure i will be able to re-ignite some interest via the blogs but we have to set up a suitable debating framework first.
I think we need an easily identifiable simple logo to identify ourselves ( can someone have ago at that I am rubbish at tech skills)
I though of maybe simply LG within a circle (to represent lobby group org) possibly with the words ‘courage, integrity, creativity’ running around the edge which would then be used as the default image on the site.
We will also need some manifesto headings under seperate postings to debate then update based on the balance of debate.
e.g.
THE CONSTITUTION
How many Mp’s and local councillors should we have?
Do we want a president as well as the queen maintained as the ceremonial figurehead and commonwealth leader i.e as she is now in effect…?
How to reform the house of lords.
Another heading could be
THE FINANCIAL SYSTEM
Restoration of the seperation between retail and investment banking ( the root cause of the crises).
Legal maximum interest rate (to protect the vulnerable)
etc etc
EMPLOYMENT
Accept that long term unemployment is ineviatable in a modern technological society where 100 people can produce enough food on a farm to feed 10,000. look to alternative lo tech ways to provide a meaning to their lives beyond endless training courses.
EDUCATION
Focus on teaching people how to think independantly again, not to learn and regurgitate facts.
ENERGY.
Massive investment to become self sufficient in energy needs, force an honest debate with eco groups who want renewable power but dont want a severn barrage ( because of the ecological impact) and use all kinds of EU legislation to slow up the process.
PRIVACY
No id cards
roll back of CCTV generally
THE LEGAL SYSTEM
has become far too complex and is comprised of a parallell language that the people it is meant to serve do not understand, therfore it is no longer fit for purpose.
etc etc etc etc
That is just off the top of my head.
Lets go to it.
Jericoa
by Nick Taylor
25 May 2009 at 09:34
Yea, I’m good with all that actually. I was slightly concerned that my views wouldn’t overlap with anyone else’s.
I’m also very much in favour of “seeing what works in other countries”… and if there are no comparisons to be made, doing experiments on a small scale on our own. I think this is a massive reason for devolving power to a local level – not having things dictated from on-high will allow greater experimentation at a local level.
Overall we should be focused on building systems with resilience in mind – because even the things that we can predict, are hitting states of unpredictability within the next 10-20 years.
by Jericoa
25 May 2009 at 12:25
Nick,
I am also a big fan of devolving power to the local level, people feel as disempowerd dealing with their local council as they do the palace of westminster. They have become mini autocracies in themselves. Way too big.
Parish councils work much better generally simply because they are small enough and themsleves affected directly by the decisions they make.
I e-mailed an idea for a logo to GT (seems to have disapeared at the moment). I am keen to make sure the site is ready before we start to publisise it, it probably sounds crass but i do think an easily identifieable logo is an important part of that.
I will try to post an opening gambit for the manifesto categories shortly.
I just had a thought that it may be better to keep this site just to those manifesto categories in terms of debating them and updating them. Maybe we could still use the old lobby group blogger site just for peripheral chit chat?
just an idea
What do you think?
jericoa
by Jericoa
25 May 2009 at 13:04
Nick,
just picked up on the ‘international’ aspect, we can ditch the ‘british’ bit from the ‘democracy v2.0 post’. I also just noted that is the term the jury team use also. I don’t suppose there is any reason why we can not use it also unless we can think of something better of course !
by goldtop
26 May 2009 at 08:02
Chaps,
“I don’t think government is the problem, I think corporate power is”
I’d say that it was a symbiotic relationship myself at the moment. However, I can see a time coming when the resources of the biggest corporations (and the power and influence that brings) will outstrip many governments. This is probably already true of many governments of the developing world. Evidence of corporate influence is obvious in many of the decisions of government too. William Gibson introduced me to the word ‘zaibatsu’ which originally referred to a conglomerate of Japanese corporations that, between the wars, managed to gain control of a significant portion of the country’s economy as well as wielding influence on both the military and government. If that isn’t a role model for current corporate behavior, then I’m just a paranoid conspiracy theorist.
by goldtop
26 May 2009 at 08:16
Jericoa,
“just had a thought that it may be better to keep this site just to those manifesto categories in terms of debating them and updating them. Maybe we could still use the old lobby group blogger site just for peripheral chit chat?”
Disagree. We need to keep it all here. I think it is important that the group keeps a focused front.
by Jericoa
27 May 2009 at 00:02
ok, fine with me just a thought.
by goldtop
27 May 2009 at 11:02
Nick-
http://www.spinwatch.org/blogs-mainmenu-29/tamasin-cave-mainmenu-107/5291-if-the-publics-lost-its-voice-then-who-is-government-listening-to
by Nick Taylor
27 May 2009 at 12:33
(from article)
“Backbenchers seem to get it. So far just under 200 of them have signed a petition calling on the Government to introduce a mandatory register of lobbying activity (we probably need reform for this to make a difference).”
I think this is absolutely crucial – to the extent that it’s slightly horrifying that it’s not law already.
Personally, I’m a little more radical – and would look to taking steps at strengthening anti-trust law to the extent that the bigger corporations are actually broken up… but that’s a more complex issue that simple transparency about levels of access afforded to moneyed interests – as opposed to the rest of us say, who will (it appears) now have to retire 5 years later than expected to deal with this bank bail-out fiasco, because they’d become “too big to fail”.
Beyond (and before) that, I also think it’s fairly crucial to be coming from the perspective that Government is OUR way of organising ourselves. It doesn’t belong to any entity that we may think of being as “them”. It belongs to us, hook, line and fucking sinker.